• TerrorIsEvil

    Regarding
    “Who does CIJA speak for?” I think that CIJA is being controlled (through
    Mr. Fogel) by the major donors who seem to care more about political and
    business interests than they do of Israel’s survival and of the danger that
    Islamists present to the Jewish people and their homeland of 3000+ years. These
    donors also have a decidedly Liberal bent, unwisely undermining the support of
    the Canadian government in all the years Harper’s government has stood up for
    Israel and for Jewish people in Canada. In fact, the Conservative government
    speaks up confidently for the Jewish nation in ways that CIJA would not dare for
    fear of offending their Islamist and Liberal friends. The CIJA strategy is fraught
    with stupidity and danger. When asked, they speak down to you as if you were an
    idiot – as if they are the only ones who know the truth – but they are
    unwilling to let you know what their strategy is. However, it is obvious to
    anyone who observes the lack of concern they have and the absence of advocacy in their operation (if
    one can call what they do advocacy at all – it is advocacy more for the rights of
    Islamists than for Jews). If I were an Islamist, I would be laughing very hard
    at how crazy Jewish groups are and how much they bend over backwards to see the
    world from an Islamist perspective – helping the Islamist cause by having such
    weak and self-absorbed leaders pretending to speak for us but doing so much damage. Unlike Jewish groups, the Islamists speak
    forcefully for their own people/sick cause and are successful in getting leftist Jews to
    join with them in their terror and stealth jihad against Israel, Jews and freedom.

    • Borukh

      I am astonished that you think “the major donors who control CIJA [and I agree with you about THAT] seem to care more about political and business interests than they do of Israel’s survival and [that]… These donors also have a decidedly Liberal bent, unwisely undermining the support of the Canadian government in all the years Harper’s government has stood up for Israel and for Jewish people in Canada.” You must be so far to the right in your thinking that you support people like Moshe Fieglin and his Jewish Defence League of Canada colleagues.

      Are you not aware that the Harper Government severely criticised Israel on announcing an expansion of settlement homes several months ago? (Please see CTV report “Harper tells Israeli PM Canada doesn’t support settlement plans” on Dec. 3, 2012 – http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/harper-tells-israeli-pm-canada-doesn-t-support-settlement-plans-1.1068819). And that was not the first time either – for eg. see: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-condemns-israeli-settlement-expansion/article1211478/.

      Are you not aware that the OFFICIAL position of Canada as stated very clearly on Foreign Affairs’ Web site doesn’t recognize Israel’s unilateral annexation of east Jerusalem, calls the settlements beyond the Green Line “a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention [and says that] The settlements also constitute a serious obstacle to achieving a omprehensive, just and lasting peace”?

      Do you not know that Canada’s view on the separation barrier is that “This construction is contrary to international law under the Fourth Geneva Convention [and that] Canada not only opposes Israel’s construction of a barrier extending into the occupied territories, but also expropriations and the demolition of houses and economic infrastructure carried out for this purpose”? (Please see: “Canadian Policy on Key Issues in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict” – http://www.international.gc.ca/name-anmo/peace_process-processus_paix/canadian_policy-politique_canadienne.aspx?lang=eng).

      You seem to be totally consumed by “Islamists”, whom you perceive as being the worst danger to the entire world and not only to Israel and Jews in general. While I share a deep concern about “Islamists” who represent an extreme element within Islam and among Muslims, I also know that there are equally extreme Jews inside and outside Israel – for eg. Dr. Baruch Goldstein, who in 1994 murdered 29 Miuslims and wounded 125 more while they all were AT PRAYER in the Cave of Makhpela in Hebron – the burial site of our patriarchs and matriarchs!

      I am not a “leftist”. I am a practicing Jew who understands what Jewish values and social justice is about, and while I agree that the CIJA does not represent me or anyone else except for the CIJE itself, your views do not represent anyone except for a fringe group among our own Canadian Jewish community.

  • TerrorIsEvil

    Borukh: You say two things that give you away: 1) “You seem to be
    totally consumed by “Islamists”, whom you perceive as being the worst
    danger to the entire world.” and 2) “I am a practicing Jew who understands
    what Jewish values and social justice is about…”

    I am consumed with Islamists (I would be consumed with Nazis but they have
    been replaced in #1 spot by their allies in the Jew annihilation movement,
    the Muslims). After over 100 years of being targeted by Islamists, Israel is
    still existentially endangered by Islam, most egregiously by Iran and dhimmi
    President Obama. Israelis have has suffered enough torture, killing, terror and
    war under Islamists and, if you do not recognize this but instead take your
    self-styled “Jewish values and social justice” to be of more importance than
    the survival of the Jewish nation, then you are a self-centered ignoramus.

    I am fully aware of the position of the Canadian government and need no
    lessons from you. I wish that everyone were as unequivocally supportive of Jewish
    interests as the Canadian government happens to be at this point in our
    history. The Harper government does what they have to do to remain in power. They
    walk the fine line of full support for the Jewish nation but not incensing the left which includes
    leftist Jews who come under the banner of IJV or former official Jews who seem
    to be looking at the world always from the perspective of Palestinian rights.
    The official Jews are giving away Israel as they huddle in the safety of
    their homes in Canada – pleading for a smaller and indefensible Israel to
    satisfy the “rights” of our terrorist killers. Justin Trudeau is kissing the arses of his Islamist supporters and advisors. He is endorsed
    by Jews who feel that their socialism is of more import than Judiasm or Jewish survival. Don’t pull the tikkun olam guilt trip on me because I know that that speech has been twisted out of all proportion from its original meaning by those who use it to instill guilt into Jews for being strong and for defending their own land and rights.

    • Borukh

      You in turn give yourself away by calling me names (“you are a self-centered ignoramus”) because I hold Jewish values and social justice as being extremely important. What does “survival” mean if it isn’t related to the core intrinsic values taught to us by our great rabbis?

      Your language is very offensive and your sharp tongue demonstrates that you are not interested in any dialogue, but only wish to promote your views as self-demonstrably correct. You rail against Jews who are “leftist” or “socialis[t]” or are “official Jews…giving away Israel as they huddle in the safety of their homes in Canada.” You seem to conflate social justice with socialism, and you dismiss tikkun olam’s relevance to the situation (tho’ I did not raise it) by saying it “has been twisted out of all proportion from its original meaning” in order to lay some kind of “guilt trip” on you and those who share your pov.

      You rudely dismiss my pointing out certain remarks and official policies of the Harper government that criticise Israel, claiming they do it in order “to remain in power” and refrain from “incensing the left which includes leftist Jews”. Your entire approach to having any sort of real dialogue smacks of such extremism that there is no room for further discussion.

      • TerrorIsEvil

        If you can live with yourself in an insular world,
        pretending that your Jewishness is a cultural shield and more important than
        the survival of real people – Jews – in
        Israel (recall, in case you have forgotten, that Judaism is centered around
        Israel in all aspects of life and religion) as you side with those who look at
        the world from the perspective of our enemies (merely to be part of the “in crowd”
        and to show off your liberal “social values”) then leave others to defend
        Israel without branding them as “extremists.” You are the extremist as you
        defend everyone’s rights (to the exclusion of Jewish rights), including the rights
        of Islamists to have a home whose purpose is to terrorize and kill Jews.

        • Borukh

          WOW – I was content to let our differences stay as we have expressed them. However you continue to malign me and others who are not exactly in your specific ‘camp’, so I must once again respond.

          “Judaism is centered around Israel in all aspects of life and religion”, you said. I think not – Israel is certainly very important, but not central. That alone defines our differences. Judaism is a religion with ethical principles and moral values based on millenia of interpretation and study. My paternal grandparents, my dad’s (a”sh) sister and bro-in-law and several of his 1st cousins made aliya in the early 1920’s to mandate Palestine.

          They were lucky to get out of eastern Galicia. My grandfather was a rabbi. My dad was very orthodox. I attended kheder at Yeshiva Torah Chaim in Toronto as a youngster. If they had not been able to obtain entry visas from the Mandate government there’s little doubt they would have perished, along with all but one of my dad’s family who were still in eastern Europe at the time of the Holocaust. My Judaism is certainly not merely “cultural”!!

          You say that I “side with those who look at the world from the perspective of our enemies (merely to be part of the ‘in crowd’ and to show off your liberal ‘social values’)”. So now I am guilty of sycophantic behaviour for having an opinion that’s different from yours – after all you know neither me nor my views apart from what I have shared with you!

          I do not “exclude Jewish rights”, nor do I promote in any way “the rights
          of Islamists to have a home whose purpose is to terrorize and kill Jews”. Your saying so does not make it so, and you have tried to extrapolate to an extraordinary degree from what I have said with your ad hominum remarks. I am not the one who lives in an “insular world” such as the one you seem to inhabit. You cannot even bring yourself to carry on a respectful discussion with me about these important issues. You just rant, rave and pronounce your insults – enough.

          • TerrorIsEvil

            The fact that your family made it to the holy land which IS the home of the
            Jews should tell you something, right? I mean, they did not escape to Germany
            or some other country that barred Jews at the time. The fact that all of the
            religious focus, from biblical times to the present, has been centred on
            Israel, should also tell you that your religion is indeed centered around Israel,
            whether you like it or not – whether that fact makes you feel uncomfortable or
            not. It certainly makes those in the NIF and IJV apoplectic – they go to
            extremes to excoriate Israel and drive a wedge between the Diaspora Jews and
            the Jews of Israel. They also try to drive a wedge between those who think that
            Israel is important and vital and those who do not give a damn if it existed at
            all.

            Israel will be there if and when you need to be rescued despite your cold
            appraisal and the distance you are trying to establish as natural, as if it
            were just one additional unimportant country. Perhaps you are ashamed that Jews
            had to fight to defend Israel and your “religion” or “culture” or “politics” have
            no place for self-determination and a Jewish homeland. Perhaps you want Jews to
            be wanderers, always subject to the whims, brutality and dictates of others –
            Nazis, Islamists, anti-Semites, Communists, etc.

            I do not want to rely on any British government or Palestinian Authority to
            grant me my rights and I do not want to give any decision-makers the power to
            brutalize us, and tell us where we can and cannot live. Perhaps you think being
            ruled over by others is fine provided you can practice your religion in private
            or public but if you ever get to an Islamic country, as I have, you will soon
            discover that freedom is not to be taken for granted.

            Also, it is not a matter of opinion that Israel is a central feature of
            Jewish life. It is fact and just because that fact does not please you, does
            not make it untrue. It just means that you have no place in your heart for
            Israel or, if you do, you feel that Judaism will survive with or without Israel. You equivocate.
            Your Judaism is more of a personal quest for self-fulfillment and
            self-enlightenment – you have convinced yourself of its authenticity. For you to be asked to defend Israel is unacceptable – to be
            asked for self-sacrifice is ridiculous in your eyes; am I correct in that
            assumption? Your beliefs and life must be filled with the easy pleasantries of
            the religious path you have chosen. You cannot imagine a world where soldiers
            must work together to defend Israel. You cannot appreciate a Harper Conservative
            government that solidly backs Israel because you do not believe in Israel and
            think it preposterous. You are more interested in fighting anyone a little to
            your right in the social spectrum. You are more interested in Muslimculturalism and other leftist socialist mantra. You believe in the sanctity of your own religious/political
            cocoon, just as the Neturei Karta believe that Israel has no place in their world and march with those who will kill us just to prove their point. Yes, I am convinced, you are the extremist
            and I represent the middle ground and normal Jewish feelings and aspirations,
            including the Zionistic feelings I have towards Israel.

          • Borukh

            TerrorisEvil – I will no longer allow you to provoke me through your unbelievably baseless comments about what I believe concerning Israel and Judaism into demonstrating item by item that it is your views which are the extreme ones. I’m sorry you continue to espouse them the way you do, but as a fellow Jew I will simply say, be well.

  • TerrorIsEvil

    Borukh says, “I am not a “leftist”. I am a practicing Jew who understands what Jewish values and social justice is about, and while I agree that the CIJA does not represent me or anyone else except for the CIJE itself, your views do not represent anyone except for a fringe group among our own Canadian Jewish community.”

    It appears that your understanding of Jewish values is far different from my own. The concept of defending Israel and the Jewish people happens to be infinitely more important than your own personal spiritual journey and your bizarre understanding of Jewish values and social justice.

    Jews have often been guided by people who misled them into thinking that their personal goodness and their social values could save them from pogroms, Holocaust, terrorism, and war. Those leaders, some who upheld socialist values as more important than Jewish values, led many to their graves because they believed in and sensed a security that never did exist. When the leaders ran, it was too late for those who were stuck with a death sentence as a result of idiotic advice and arrogant and ignorant leadership.

    Some leaders in the Jewish community gravitated to Communism or other “Isms” and today we can see that some, like yourself, dare not see the danger in Islamism and think that it can be wished away or perhaps is one dialogue meeting away from erasing their hate, violence and prejudice (contained in their books) against us, the infidels.

    They were wrong then and you are also wrong now. The Jewish people are smarter today and Israelis would justifiably laugh at your post because your values would lead them to an indefensible, smaller shtetl, carved out of a former Israel, surrounded by bloodthirsty Islamists who, then and now, are ready to pounce.

    And, by the way, I would be happy to see a world as pro-Israel as Canada despite your attempt to find and highlight all of its flaws so that you can push out our friends in Canadian government, replace them with enemies and deliver us all to our enemies.